00;00;06;22 - 00;00;54;13
Mark Conrad
Hello and welcome to the Sports Business Podcast with Prof. C, the podcast that explores the world of professional, collegiate, amateur and Olympic sports. I'm Mark Conrad or Prof. C from Fordham University's Gabelli School of Business, where I serve as professor of law and ethics and the director of the Sports Business Initiative. On our podcast, we have discussed issues of technology and sports, and for this episode, we will dive into what is known as immersive technology and how this kind of delivery system can rethink how sports teams and brands can engage with fans.

00;00;54;15 - 00;01;17;08
Mark Conrad
With me to discuss the potential of immersive technology and how it is currently used is James Giglio, the founder and CEO of MVP Interactive, a firm that engages in using immersive technology in the sports area. James, welcome to the Sports Business Podcast.

00;01;17;14 - 00;01;23;21
James Giglio
Well, thank you for having me Prof. C, I can be James G. Just to kind of keep the, the moniker going here.

00;01;23;24 - 00;01;35;15
Mark Conrad
Oh, that's very good. Okay. It rhymes too. Yes. So for those of us who don't know or may not know. What do we mean by immersive technology?

00;01;35;18 - 00;02;02;11
James Giglio
Yeah, it's a good question. And you know, obviously I don't think it's a part of the everyday nomenclature of our everyday lives. And so I think the easiest and simplest way to describe it is really, the blend of a digital and physical environment. And so, that could be a wide range of digital technologies, most notably known as augmented reality or virtual reality.

00;02;02;14 - 00;02;39;06
James Giglio
but it's really not secluded to just those two technologies where there is a host of, gesture based experiences that technologies can integrate a individual into an experience that, again, blends a physical environment with a digital screen or a digital environment that allows a user to immerse themselves into an environment by using 3D sensors or peripheral technology devices to really allow yourself to escape into a setting both digitally and physically at the same time.

00;02;39;06 - 00;03;06;14
James Giglio
And so, you know, for many years when we would try to describe our tech, our company MVP Interactive, it was very hard because you can imagine, you know, ten years ago when you were talking about AR, VR, that wasn't necessarily a trending topic. And so, you know, it was a bit of a tongue twister trying to sell our technology to sports teams or marketers, trying to explain what, immersive technology or creative technology was.

00;03;06;14 - 00;03;53;13
James Giglio
And so, you know, I think the the use were right around 2020, 2021, the term XR or mixed reality had sort of come to fold through, the metaverse or, augmented reality technologies or, you know, when NFTs started to kind of come to light and, you know, I think when, Apple was started teasing their Vision Pro products that, were sort of sort of teasing out into the market that, you know, this, this or this definition of mixed reality kind of came to light, where immersive technologies were starting to find its way into the marketing world and definition, and where people now have a better understanding that mixed reality is really a

00;03;53;13 - 00;04;00;08
James Giglio
combination of all these technologies that fold under the umbrella of immersive technology.

00;04;00;10 - 00;04;04;04
Mark Conrad
And when did you start MVP Interactive?

00;04;04;06 - 00;04;09;23
James Giglio
Yeah, it was the spring of 2012. May 1st to be exact.

00;04;09;25 - 00;04;19;15
Mark Conrad
And why at that time and why this company and where did you come from to get to the point of starting MVP Interactive?

00;04;19;17 - 00;04;46;27
James Giglio
Yeah. Well, it was, kind of a crazy story. I had been working in advertising and in particular the out-of-home advertising realm. And, you know, this was back in 2008 with the advent of the iPhone. And as you remember, when the iPhone sort of came to market, it really revolutionized how we communicated not only on our mobile devices, but how we interacted with technology and brands and with the use of mobile apps.

00;04;46;27 - 00;05;28;10
James Giglio
We saw the trend on not only entertainment applications in how we would kill time and how we would just use these, you know, fun, quick hit, gamified experiences on our phone to entertain ourselves. But you know how we could use our mobile devices to interact with our everyday lives, whether it was mobile banking or communication. And so I started to see a trend where brands were really leaning into technology and being in and around New York, you started to see stunting marketing campaigns, right where they would be called, you know, station domination activations, right? Where you'd go through Penn Station or, Grand Central Station, and there would be a brand that would, you know,

00;05;28;10 - 00;06;08;02
James Giglio
build a, a prop set of some sort. And, you know, they would create this sort of entertaining footprint where, you know, commuters would go by and they were handing out these sort of tchotchkes. And, you know, it was a great way to kind of generate some PR and some buzz around the brand for a particular promotion. And, you know, you know, it just felt a little more analog in terms of, how marketing was was leaning towards a face to face communication with, individuals and, but I knew technology, just as a general interest of mine, where I was by no means a software developer or a techie traditionally, but I was always very,

00;06;08;09 - 00;06;52;07
James Giglio
interested in the realm of technology. But more importantly, I just saw a trend in where technology was evolving and how it was going to to change our, our lives because of the iPhone. Granted, I was always a sports fan, and growing up playing sports and attending sports games, I had a distinct memory of attending games and walking the concourse and being solicited by brands for, you know, exchange of information and and in a very similar fashion, you know, credit card companies or banking companies looking for applications to fill out for, you know, for fans so they can get a, a towel or a foam finger or some type of like Tchotchke again, and,

00;06;52;10 - 00;07;32;20
James Giglio
you know, having this yard bar kind of experience walking through games. And I felt, you know, through the last few years from 2008 to 2010, 2011 to 2012, that, you know, what a perfect way by attending, a sports environment or sports game that you can tap into the passion of attending a live event, like a sports game, that you can leverage technology as a two way form of communication between a brand and a fan, by allowing a fan to interact with the brand in a very seamless way by giving this fan a really unique experience through technology where it doesn't seem so obstructive, right?

00;07;32;20 - 00;07;54;28
James Giglio
So it was a frictionless, frictionless communication, we like to say where, you know, you could essentially go up to some type of interactive technology and participate in something or very seamless exchange of information with, you know, generally a brand that you may not be interested in. Right. And but it just felt natural because you were immersed in this environment, you were attending a game.

00;07;54;28 - 00;08;13;27
James Giglio
And, you know, as you know, when you attend a game, you're investing in a full day of your time as well as a pretty significant financial investment. So you really want to maximize your time and your dollar. And so you want to see the sights. Right? And so at the time, I really had no idea what that was.

00;08;13;27 - 00;08;41;01
James Giglio
But I knew in theory, you have tens of thousands of people in one central location for hours on end, where you have brands already invested in the business of sports through sponsorships. And I just felt that there was just a perfect combination of where consumer engagement and marketing could live together. And so this idea just kind of kicked in my head for, for quite some time.

00;08;41;01 - 00;09;08;08
James Giglio
And then as, as things went on, I started noticing trends in digital signage. And I was in and around technology, you know, being in this advertising environment and starting to see interactive technology kind of taking fold. And then I and then it sort of dawned on me where it's like interactive kiosks, you know, I started to see these wayfinding kiosks in malls and, you know, the Xbox Connect and Play stations were really coming to fold.

00;09;08;08 - 00;09;38;13
James Giglio
And, you know, my brother was very much more of a gamer than I was or really technical and seeing, you know, his gaming activities. And I thought, simulated sporting experiences where what if you take this Xbox or this Madden like experience out of your home and bring it into a venue where you can create these customized, you know, branded games to an event right where you could have, say, the Coca-Cola version of a of a Madden football game where the users could participate.

00;09;38;13 - 00;10;00;18
James Giglio
And so I kind of sketched out these, these interactive kiosks and I thought, yeah, this is the module. Right. This is, this is what could possibly bring this all together. And so I was down in Tampa on an ad pitch working for this other company. And I was in Tampa for a few days, and I was literally obsessing.

00;10;00;18 - 00;10;24;22
James Giglio
I just could not I was like a crazy person. I could not get this idea out of my head, and I was obsessing over it, and I, I had a little bit of downtime and I told myself, okay, here I am in Tampa. They have three major sports teams here. I'm going to do my best to get in front of either the Bucs, the Lightning, or the Rays to see if they'll take a call and just hear me out.

00;10;24;24 - 00;10;48;07
James Giglio
So I went online, I scoured YouTube, I had no database of contacts. I just tried to find contact information. So I happened to find a YouTube channel for the Tampa Bay Rays. I found a marketing manager named Brian Killingsworth who was at a bar event for the Tampa Bay Rays. He seemed about my age. He seemed like a likable guy.

00;10;48;07 - 00;11;11;15
James Giglio
Like, he seemed friendly. He had his contact information in that YouTube video. And so I called him up and it happened to be February. March. So it was the pre-season. And he said, sure, you know, I'm taking meetings. It's the pre-season. Won't you come on down and I told him I was in town just for a few days and the next day I brazenly showed up to his office in Saint Pete's.

00;11;11;15 - 00;11;35;17
James Giglio
He was. His office was at the stadium. I had no collateral, no business card. And, essentially pitched him what I'm explaining to you guys right now. And he goes, you know, we just had a meeting about this because, you know, we're in Saint Pete's. It's about 40 minutes from Tampa. We can't really get fans from Monday to Wednesday in our stadium.

00;11;35;17 - 00;11;57;21
James Giglio
And we were just thinking about ways how we can disneyfy Tropicana Field, like how do we get attractions. And we were thinking about ways that we can, like, really enhance our venue and create fan experiences. I said, yes, that's the vision. You know, you want to create this entertainment like environment where it's just not about the game, because obviously that's very important.

00;11;57;21 - 00;12;13;26
James Giglio
But you need to use these other marketing points and, you know, you can help the sponsors or you can help underwrite these experiences through the sponsorships and so on. And he goes, you know, this is great. You know, how much is how much does this stuff costs? And I go, I don't know, give me three months, give me some time.

00;12;13;26 - 00;12;42;06
James Giglio
And so, you know, I was very candid with, you know, where we, where I was with, you know, this sort of vision and the capabilities, but I essentially left that meeting doing cartwheels. I thought I had discovered, you know, bread. Right? You know, it's just like I, I, I discovered something and as insane, and again, I always tell people I would not recommend starting the business on an anecdotal meeting or just a good idea like you, there's a lot more that goes into it.

00;12;42;06 - 00;13;03;28
James Giglio
But I was naive, which is is super power in many ways, you know, when you don't know what you don't know and you can use that to your strength, but I, I went back to New York and, you know, with that information, I, I did present this to my then boss, who I said, listen, I can spin up a sports and entertainment division of our company.

00;13;03;29 - 00;13;27;17
James Giglio
Let me run it in. You know, I think we need to create these these modules, if you will, and it didn't stick it completely diverted from what their normal business. So I don't blame them, you know. And it would have been a totally different entity for the company. But you know I think thank God in many ways like, you know, it's but I, I, you know, took about another month or two to get my affairs in order.

00;13;27;17 - 00;13;38;15
James Giglio
And I got enough courage and took the leap. I quit my job and incorporated literally the end of April and launched in May 2012.

00;13;38;17 - 00;13;40;09
Mark Conrad
Was it just you that started?

00;13;40;09 - 00;13;43;05
James Giglio
It was just me. That's right. Yeah.

00;13;43;08 - 00;14;08;02
Mark Conrad
That is very interesting from an entrepreneurial theory point of view. So you started it. And then how do you create the kiosks? How do you create the hardware [James Giglio: Yeah.] to sell to the many teams that you have sold to. And in a few minutes, I'll talk about 1 or 2 of the, interactive activities you have. But from the evolution of this.

00;14;08;02 - 00;14;18;06
Mark Conrad
So you're there alone, said, okay, you call you you are, it's you yourself. And that's it. That's and and you're not a software engineer.

00;14;18;09 - 00;14;37;29
James Giglio
I'm not a software engineer. I barely knew how to plug in a computer. I didn't know operating systems, but I had a lot of friends, and I and I knew a lot of people that that did. And, you know, I, you know, worked with people in the past that that could help or at least thought I could help.

00;14;37;29 - 00;14;57;00
James Giglio
And I had friends and what I call believers. Right. And so and by the way, this is a shameless plug. And I, my, my marketing director would yell at me if I didn't mention this, but all of this can be read in my book called Beyond the Jumbotron, where you can purchase this on Amazon or any North American book retailer.

00;14;57;00 - 00;14;58;09
James Giglio
So, I just wanted to.

00;14;58;09 - 00;15;01;11
Mark Conrad
And I was going to announce that. Yeah. Okay.

00;15;01;11 - 00;15;01;21
James Giglio
Sorry.

00;15;01;21 - 00;15;29;13
Mark Conrad
Beyond the Jumbotron: Creating Fan Experiences Through Immersive Technology. It is a fascinating book, a short read. it is, you know, full of, codes there. You know, obviously point your phone to get more, into, it even has a feel of something interactive as well. So I'm just curious on the book, the book Jumbotron. What kind of readers are you trying to reach?

00;15;29;15 - 00;15;35;06
James Giglio
Well [...] you know, the inspiration for the book. Well, actually, let me let me finish this.

00;15;35;07 - 00;15;35;12
Mark Conrad
Okay.

00;15;35;14 - 00;15;57;11
James Giglio
First question. I don't want to, you know, jump over that, just just because, you know, it should be said and I want to give credit to where, where it's due with all the people that had helped. And so, you know, I had friends and, you know, previous partners that, you know, we worked tirelessly just researching and finding fabricators and ordering television screens and computers.

00;15;57;11 - 00;16;44;19
James Giglio
And, you know, we were working, you know, overnight figuring out how we were going to make television screens into touch screens and hot gluing things together. And, you know, figuring out operating systems. And I had learned so much within that three months of prototyping, building out at kiosks that I went from literally 0 to 1, that old adage and, and building out this kiosk and finding a fabricator in Chicago, ordering screens from, California and getting computer parts from our fine friends and, you know, and B&H in New York City on Ninth Avenue there, that's my favorite electronic store.

00;16;44;19 - 00;17;14;00
James Giglio
And, you know, just working out of a photography studio in Philadelphia and, you know, just making it out of sheer will and, you know, meanwhile, trying to sell concepts to professional teams and sports league in which, you know, we were able to successfully do with the NBA. And that very prototype was our first proof of concept that we sold to the NBA for our first engagement.

00;17;14;00 - 00;17;40;29
James Giglio
And, and, that's really where what launched our business, where I, I kind of joke that I Forest Gumped my way into the NBA league office where, Mark Tatum took my call and he's now the assistant commissioner of the league. At that time, he was the executive global marketing manager. And I pitched him, you know, essentially, you know, a few concepts of what our interactive kiosk could do.

00;17;40;29 - 00;17;59;27
James Giglio
And at that time, you know, this was well before Snapchat. And, you know, we called our kiosk the Morphing Station with the idea that we were going to create these face filters. And, you know, we can engage in fans and and create all these photo augmented reality experiences. And he had no idea what the heck I was talking about.

00;17;59;27 - 00;18;18;01
James Giglio
And he goes, but this sounds interesting. Why don't you talk to my event team? And I spoke to the event team and they said, yeah, this sounds this is sounds great. We put on an all star weekend that we call Jam Session. We take over the city. The next Jam Session is in February over President's Weekend in Houston.

00;18;18;03 - 00;18;35;17
James Giglio
This is, February 2013. You know, what we can do is if you come up with a concept, you know, we can give you floor space. And, you know, it's a big convention center. You know, we're there all weekend. And this way you can show off your prototype. And if it goes well, you know, we'll give you the showcase.

00;18;35;17 - 00;18;49;14
James Giglio
And, you know, we're not going to pay you for it, but we'll give you tickets to the All-Star Game. You want to go to see the dunk contest. You want to see, you know, 3-point contest. You know that's what we can do for you. And so we came up with this concept of creating digital bobbleheads of fans.

00;18;49;14 - 00;19;09;25
James Giglio
Right. So you could go up to this kiosk, choose your custom figurine if you know you're East or West Conference and choose fun hairstyles and then using face filters, you know, convert you into a digital bobblehead that you could share to social and you receive an email and all of that. And again this was pre Snapchat. No one knew what face filters were.

00;19;09;25 - 00;19;42;09
James Giglio
And so we went down to Houston and good on the NBA, they put us right next to the autograph stage. And so we had every NBA legend walk by our kiosk. And the line queue was, you know, 100 deep the entire weekend. And you know, I give a lot of credit to our now managing director, Billy Bellotti. He was, you know, his main goal for that weekend in, in, in Houston was to get every area team and sponsor in front of our kiosk.

00;19;42;09 - 00;19;59;00
James Giglio
And we pitched and pitched and pitch, and we literally walked home with a six figure contract with the NBA league banking sponsor, who at the time was BBVA Compass. And then we worked, with all of their Houston sports teams throughout the rest of the year.

00;19;59;03 - 00;20;07;25
Mark Conrad
And hard work, guts and a vision and and [James Giglio: with a little stupidity] and since then.

00;20;07;27 - 00;20;43;14
Mark Conrad
Well, not in the long run, because at this point you have a number of teams, that, you, provide services for. And I wanted to give a couple of examples of the interactive activities you do, you know, for listeners out there. And one was that struck me was the USAA Quarterback Qualification Challenge. [James: Sure.] And in this game, users have 45 seconds to throw footballs at three targets that correspond to their on screen character moving from one end zone to the other.

00;20;43;17 - 00;20;55;14
Mark Conrad
A leaderboard displays the fastest times. So in such a interactive activity, what fans are you looking for to participate in this kind of activity?

00;20;55;14 - 00;21;16;10
James Giglio
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. And so we're fortunate enough each year that we get to work, with USAA and their agency 160over90 to activate, not only at the Army-Navy game each year, which is usually in this obviously in December. It's a great year and activation for us. It's in the middle of December.

00;21;16;10 - 00;21;45;21
James Giglio
So it's a great year or a great end of year activation. And kind of wraps up the the year for us. And it's it's a great camaraderie. It's obviously the Army-Navy game. So yeah, there's a lot of sense of camaraderie and pride and in all of that. And so working with a financial brand, is really interesting and compelling for us because I think from a brand perspective and immersive technology, you know, you don't necessarily put those two together.

00;21;45;23 - 00;22;01;15
James Giglio
Right? But we we say this all the time, and we were just had another financial company that we were talking to yesterday. And they're like, you know, we're we're kind of a stale brand. And you know, we're insurance and CDs and investments. And, you know, I don't know how you know, we're not fun and exciting for sports fan.

00;22;01;15 - 00;22;26;03
James Giglio
I said, no, you are. But this is where we we really create value because we can weave your brand and your messaging to make it make sense for this type of engagement. And so what this immersive technology and creative technology allows is that's where that communication piece comes into play. Because, you know, as you're participating in this this quarterback challenge, it's weaving in and a couple of things.

00;22;26;03 - 00;22;59;20
James Giglio
Obviously, USAA is a very military centric brand. They're exclusively for family members and servicemen in the military. And so, you know, the messaging there is they wanted to have a bit of a military type engagement tying into a football experience. Right. And so a quarterback challenge, implementing target practice and targets was is sort of seamless integration into being hitting the bull's eyes or hitting your goals.

00;22;59;20 - 00;23;20;09
James Giglio
And so when you talk about financial goals, you talk about maybe a shooting range, you weave in football, so you get your target practice. And so what we were able to do is, strategically place on a, I think it was about a 30 yard strip of field we put, I don't want to say mannequins, but they were, dummies, player dummies.

00;23;20;12 - 00;23;45;29
James Giglio
We built out impact sensors that, each dummy had on their chest. And so as fans or users threw the footballs, they would hit the sensors. But then we had a big LED board that had the animated players run across the field. So as the balls would hit the sensors on the dummy, the animations on the LED board would come to life, registered your score.

00;23;45;29 - 00;24;10;01
James Giglio
So there was a big crowd awareness and so you would hit your goal, financial goals. You had your target practice and then obviously you were participating in the athletic football event. So it was a it was a nice sort of combination of holistically weaving in all of the brand guidelines, and it made a ton of sense for the event, and fans had a lot of fun participating in it.

00;24;10;03 - 00;24;19;00
Mark Conrad
When you participate in an event like this, in an activity like this, do you have to supply any kind of data information?

00;24;19;02 - 00;24;47;16
James Giglio
Very good question. That's exclusively almost always the case. Yes, absolutely. And you know, something we like to say is, you know, we always focus on the front end fun experience. Undoubtedly. You know, we generally knock that out of the park, but we are competitive advantages. The amount of focus and attention that we put into the user generated content and the data that brands require and should utilize.

00;24;47;18 - 00;25;13;27
James Giglio
So what we do is as lines cue for these activations, we develop a QR mobile registration application. There's a QR sign fans will scan their QR code and have registration. A web based registration form will appear on their phone. So then we start inputting their information. So that's where you can also mill some information that makes sense for the brand.

00;25;13;27 - 00;25;47;05
James Giglio
So if you are a financial brand you can easily ask them, hey, are you a military serviceman? Are you affiliated with Army? Are you affiliated with Navy? And very simple questions. But most importantly, name, email address, phone number, all data that they can store into their CRM for remarketing and sort of promotional items after the activation. So and it's a great time killer because as the fans are waiting, they're not sort of bored, just waiting and getting frustrated, waiting for their turn.

00;25;47;08 - 00;26;05;26
James Giglio
They're just, you know, enrolling in this participation. So it feels natural. You know, we've all been in a theme park where it's like, oh my gosh, I have nothing to do. I'm just in this snake line just waiting to get onto this ride. And so there's ways that you can keep the users engaged. And we can create light games during this mobile experience as well.

00;26;05;26 - 00;26;33;19
James Giglio
And so as they get into the participation of the event, they can also scan that QR code when, they step up to the game where now their information is displayed. Get ready Mark, it is your turn. So there's that vanity play like, oh wow, I'm already queued and like I'm ready to go. So they participate. There's usually a photo or video recording of the user's participation.

00;26;33;21 - 00;26;48;06
James Giglio
So when the email is distributed to them, it's a branded memento in the form of an email or text message that they can share socially, download and send to their friends, or post across social media.

00;26;48;08 - 00;27;16;01
Mark Conrad
And what do you do about children playing some of these games? Maybe not this one, because it's an insurance company for veterans and military personnel, but, you had the 2023 Women's Final Four tournament and then activities there. So was that a broader audience? And if indeed you do cater, or allow those under 18 to play or compete, do you have to, have restrictions on the information they give?

00;27;16;04 - 00;27;52;06
James Giglio
Yeah, it's a it's a very good question. Generally it's not a problem. But there are, you know, UX or user experience concerns or considerations that we have to make, you know, with technology. So obviously when you're using 3D scan or a 3D cameras, when you're using the user's body as the remote control, there's different height requirements. When if we're doing a virtual field goal kicking game, when you have an adult kicking their leg versus a toddler kicking their leg, you know you have to make sure that the tracking systems can align for a wide range of heights and body sizes.

00;27;52;06 - 00;28;18;15
James Giglio
And so that's something that we have to consider when building out the algorithms for the experiences. I will say, when we work with alcohol brands, we do have to age gate some of the experiences. And so we can get creative with the what's called the, UI or user interface, where during that registration piece we have an opt in.

00;28;18;15 - 00;28;31;03
James Giglio
where, are you over 21? If you click no, then, you know, we kind of redirect them into a different participation or a different area so we can avoid any conflict there.

00;28;31;05 - 00;28;37;29
Mark Conrad
how young can a child participant be in some of these, immersive, activities?

00;28;37;29 - 00;29;04;08
James Giglio
Good question. So we ... very young and this past summer and there they'll be continuing this campaign for two more years. But we're working with GoGo squeeZ, you know, so the pouched applesauce brand, they're they're partner with the, Canadian women's soccer team. And so they go on a mobile tour throughout Canada all summer. And it is specifically designed for young kids.

00;29;04;11 - 00;29;28;28
James Giglio
And so it's a virtual penalty, penalty kicking game. And so, it's in a trailer that they bring throughout Canada, and we have a large, digital screen inside that trailer where it's, again, using a 3D camera that we're tracking kids of all ages. And so the strategy there is we have different age groupings. So there's a brand ambassador.

00;29;28;28 - 00;29;47;02
James Giglio
So when a child comes on, we ask the parents, you know, what age grouping they fit in. And so there's a, you know a grouping. So 0 to 3 you know, 4 to 8, you know, 9 above. And then once they click that age grouping the technology can adjust based on the user.

00;29;47;05 - 00;30;12;04
Mark Conrad
And what information has to be disclosed before the person can participate. Because in the example with the USA quarterback qualification, you know, it said name, address, email with children, is not more restrictive. I mean, there are laws that are restricted certainly to those under 14. [James Giglio: Yeah.] from that information. So how do you deal with that particular issue?

00;30;12;06 - 00;30;34;05
James Giglio
Yep. That that experience there is there's absolutely no shared information. There's just general waivers in terms of liability of participation. You agree that, you know, if you slip and fall, you slip and fall in, that, you know, we're not responsible for the unfortunate injury that may happen. Thank God there's never been said injury.

00;30;34;05 - 00;30;59;23
James Giglio
But, yeah, when there's a child focused event, we don't require any data information. And, you know, brands are pretty clear with, understanding that. And they don't look to, to mill that information. And, you know, Coca-Cola is a good example of that. When we ever work with that brand in particular, you know, their marketing strategy in general is mostly we just want to create the experience and, and just own the experience.

00;30;59;23 - 00;31;13;23
James Giglio
It's not about collecting user information. It's just we want to know that, you know, Coca Cola presented this and created this for the event. And, you know, this was the shareable moment that that fans could participate in.

00;31;13;25 - 00;31;18;14
Mark Conrad
So most of your deals are with brands as opposed to teams. Is that correct?

00;31;18;16 - 00;31;42;16
James Giglio
Yes. You know, but that thankfully is is changing. And that's a very good point. And I think that's where the evolution of experiential marketing, as well as the fan experience as a genre, has really shifted back ten years ago. You know, when when we would sell to teams, fan experience really meant concessions and a jumbotron and maybe Wi-Fi.

00;31;42;16 - 00;32;10;18
James Giglio
And so we were really ahead of ourselves in terms of where stadium operations or marketing even considered what fan experience was, where anything that we are producing or were producing was considered a nice to have, where now it's very much considered a must have. And this sponsored activation or experiential marketing is is now a key category within a holistic or integrated marketing platform.

00;32;10;20 - 00;32;41;12
James Giglio
You know, and so I think the demand to create that full day experience or that unique, you can only experience what you're doing here at at our stadium is more important than ever, because the at home viewing experience and all the way, all the other ways that you can consume a game is so good right now. You know, properties are really, really you know, pressured to, to create, a really unique and one of a kind experience by attending the game.

00;32;41;12 - 00;32;44;00
James Giglio
And, and this is one way that they can help.

00;32;44;03 - 00;33;04;04
Mark Conrad
So we are with James Giglio and we're talking about experiential marketing. And he is the author of Beyond the Jumbotron: Creating Fan Experience Through Immersive Technology. So what do you think are some of the areas of potential growth that have been untapped?

00;33;04;06 - 00;33;40;18
James Giglio
So good question. You know, I think as a business, when it comes to this, the stadium business and sponsorship, I, I firmly believe that there's an opportunity for sports sponsorship to, to be disrupted and, and what I mean by that is the sports fan is such a coveted consumer to be marketed to because of who they are and the passion they bring and the loyalty that they can commit to a particular brand.

00;33;40;26 - 00;34;08;09
James Giglio
I mean, fans are fanatical, right? Like that's that's essentially where that word comes from. Right? And so if you're a brand that you can tap in and tie a passion to a particular fan, I think that's that's a really strong loyalty in consumer to market too. But the the business of sponsorship is really one of which that is closed doors.

00;34;08;09 - 00;34;37;10
James Giglio
And, and, and I think from an ownership perspective that the traditional mindset or the traditional business model is, okay, I'm a I'm a I'm a team owner, I have a, I have a group of corporate partnership salespeople. I want to bring in maybe ten new corporate sponsors, and I want to lock them in as long as possible for as much money as possible.

00;34;37;12 - 00;35;12;07
James Giglio
Well, there's only so many brands that can afford that or that can, you know, underwrite that type of contract. And you're boxing out so many different brands that would love to be marketing inside your building or marketing to your fans. And so because of that model, I think there's a host of brands that are really boxed out. And so I think that, you know, through various out-of-home advertising channels and out-of-home advertising networks, there's going to be evolving opportunities, even for companies like myself.

00;35;12;07 - 00;35;41;29
James Giglio
And I think we're embarking on a sort of a pivot for ourselves to kind of create an ad network to allow, you know, these non-endemic brands or noncompetitive sponsorship sponsor brands to enter the stadium business, to market to fans for our gaming devices and a fraction of the investment and term of a traditional sponsorship. So I firmly believe that. Now that could come in many other ways as well.

00;35;41;29 - 00;36;12;15
James Giglio
You know, that could come in incremental marketing dollars, whether, you know, there are TV ads in bathrooms, concession ads, other out of home advertising channels throughout the stadium, interactive kiosks like ours. I just think that there's so many other ways that stadiums can monetize their buildings if they just thought differently on how they sell sponsorship, if they just opened up access to a more broad business model.

00;36;12;17 - 00;36;38;13
Mark Conrad
Or let me posit something else. What about increased carve outs to smaller type of areas for some of the brands? So instead of the official sedan, it's the official, you know, sporty sedan or the official, [James Giglio: yeah, exactly.] quasi truck, you know, whatever it may be or, you know, there. If I tell my students there are four types of bottled water.

00;36;38;15 - 00;36;38;24
James Giglio
Right?

00;36;38;24 - 00;37;06;25
Mark Conrad
And possibly if you carve it out that way, the ride speeds cumulative cumulatively will be more. Yeah, but, they could be cheaper, as well. And so, you know, what's the difference between Cartesian water and, carbonated water? Well, there is a difference. [James Giglio: Yeah.] And so maybe that's a possibility. And maybe with children's items too. And the alternative broadcasting issue, you know, the SpongeBobification of the Super Bowl can be an option as well.

00;37;06;26 - 00;37;29;13
James Giglio
I agree, I absolutely agree. Yeah, yeah. And I hope to see it come. You know, I, I really do. I think that it would, you know, it would bring a lot of value to properties and brands and I, and I think there's a host of local regional brands that, that really deserve access to the properties and to the teams as well.

00;37;29;13 - 00;37;49;00
James Giglio
And, you know, listen, I think loyalty programing is a big miss in the pro sports world too. Like, I mean, you can't get a credit card or fly on an airplane or, you know, get on any transit without any type of loyalty programing. Why is isn't that in part of a sports team? Right. And why isn't that embedded throughout your community?

00;37;49;00 - 00;38;10;08
James Giglio
Like, I live in Philadelphia. It's a major sports city, you know, why isn't there any campaign with any bank that or even with any particular team that you're earning loyalty points by ordering a sandwich from here, a mattress from here, changing your oil from here, and then also buying a ticket to this game and that game. Like, it just doesn't make sense to me.

00;38;10;08 - 00;38;17;20
James Giglio
Like that could be. And then like, you can sell that sponsorship package to be a part of that couponing or that loyalty programing.

00;38;17;23 - 00;38;41;26
Mark Conrad
And at one time there was. There was some attempts, I'd say about 20 years ago because I had one of those cards. [James Giglio: Okay.] And it was disbanded. I’m not going to mention the team and the company, but it was disbanded, and I think it was because at that time, they didn't sell fans what you could do with it, you know, and they were competing with the airlines credit cards, which gave a lot more options

00;38;41;28 - 00;39;01;26
Mark Conrad
[James Giglio: I see.] as well. That's my thought. If anybody out there would want to debate and write me, they can certainly can. But I think, but it's a very good point. We're in a different era and people are using credit cards. You know, much, much more, especially since Covid cash is so rare. So it could very well be an idea to do that.

00;39;01;26 - 00;39;15;16
James Giglio
But, you know, there's been things that have been ahead of its time, right? And what's old is new. And we can talk about the QR codes. I mean, that's that thing tried for 20 years before it got big. And so you can give it, you know, again.

00;39;15;18 - 00;39;28;28
Mark Conrad
So where do you see the technology going in the next five years? You know, we sort of are moving from AR VR distinctions, as you said. So where we see, you know, this immersive technology going, where you see it.

00;39;29;00 - 00;40;03;11
James Giglio
Particularly, I mean, I don't know if this bodes well for me, per se. I mean, I can make the argument both ways, but I think personally, I think, spatial computing is extremely fascinating, and I am very I've been high on, on mixed reality headsets for, for many years. And as the Apple Vision Pro has finally come to market, and knowing that this is going to be the worst iteration of that product that's out there and what it's capable of doing in its current state, it's a very positive forward look as to what's possible.

00;40;03;11 - 00;40;49;18
James Giglio
And so I think, again, from a property perspective or broadcast perspective, it's going to put a lot of pressure again on ownership of creating a better in-game experience or in-stadium experience, because what the capabilities are in spatial computing, in mixed reality is, is really fascinating. And so that is a perfect example of what mixed reality is, is blending that digital and physical world together and, you know, watching, you know, there's an app right now on the Vision Pro and the PGA tour app and, you know, being able to choose any hole on the tournament and expanding it in AR and spinning it and then watching the flight path of each hole and then being

00;40;49;18 - 00;41;11;21
James Giglio
able to analyze it. It's just such a cool and creative way to watch golf and see the statistics and have a news feed and then have broadcast feed all at the same time. And by the way, you can just walk throughout your living room and not disrupt your, you know, your your maneuverability because there is the pass through capability.

00;41;11;21 - 00;41;36;27
James Giglio
And so I believe that technology is going very similar to what the iPhone has done in terms of changing the way we live. I do think mixed reality is going to change the way that we interact with the world when headsets are trimmed down to a more utility eyewear, where it's not going to be these sort of ridiculous snow goggle headsets, and they look like, you know, the glasses that you're wearing now.

00;41;36;27 - 00;41;55;19
James Giglio
And, you know, we're going to be able to, you know, pull up our navigation or map and find details and things. And so I personally, this may be more of a personal perspective, but I just do not see the future not heading that way. And so when it comes to broadcast, you had mentioned, I think that's the way the future is going to go.

00;41;55;19 - 00;42;23;22
James Giglio
And so I think as it relates to where our type of business and where the in-game experience needs to be is the, again, properties are going to be really challenged with. All right, it's no longer the man cave, it's now the man cave and spatial computing. And you know, the luxuries of home. Like we really need to amp up what the in-venue experience is because, you know, it's going to be really cool in five years just to watch five games at once in 3D.

00;42;23;25 - 00;42;50;10
Mark Conrad
Well, would you think of expanding to that sort of, evolving and taking the in-stadium experience and trying to do something by stream or alter it, or work with a team to do some kind of alternate broadcasting techniques with various games interspersed at halftime or, between periods or between innings and say, stick around on this. Hey, you can try to be, you know, your virtual designated hitter.

00;42;50;12 - 00;42;51;08
Mark Conrad
Something along those lines.

00;42;51;13 - 00;43;05;02
James Giglio
We've played around with. You know, you'd mentioned the SpongeBobification, which I love. And, you know, Nickelodeon does a fantastic job. We've toyed around with a couple of concepts, laying AR over live broadcast. So yeah, absolutely.

00;43;05;05 - 00;43;33;19
Mark Conrad
Do you also think of an idea of, specifying broadcast for novices, people that may not be as knowledgeable about the sport? And let's say somebody who's not, born into American football, but maybe English soccer or, you know, from another country and find football difficult to understand, which it can be. So, and maybe, alternate broadcasts with, hey, practice throwing a ball.

00;43;33;22 - 00;43;36;20
Mark Conrad
Yeah, practice doing a kick.

00;43;36;22 - 00;43;59;23
James Giglio
Another good example is, like the Taylor Swift phenomenon. How many new fans did she bring to football that had no idea what the heck was happening on the field? So I think, you know, when you can bring in that, that level of fan base at that volume that has no idea what's happening, but they just want to get that, you know, 15 second clip of her in the, in the, in the, in the suite.

00;43;59;26 - 00;44;14;24
James Giglio
Want to watch the game for that, but then sort of get intrigued with the game but not knowing what a penalty is, not knowing what a first down is that that's a very good point in perspective to get that educational piece. And yeah, yeah, there's a lot of opportunity there.

00;44;14;26 - 00;44;22;04
Mark Conrad
And before we go, I forgot to ask earlier, how many teams do you have any affiliation agreements with?

00;44;22;07 - 00;44;54;15
James Giglio
Well, I, I would say we've had over 60, you know, over the, over the years. And so we've named a team and we've probably have worked with them at some point. And, you know, our our active roster is always evolving. You know, as seasons ends and seasons, start up again. So, yeah, you know, we're we're really excited about, you know, we have some news coming out next week about our ... it'll be the first in-stadium advertising network with our interactive gaming kiosks.

00;44;54;15 - 00;45;27;14
James Giglio
And so we're going to bring that out to the market. And so I think it's it's really going to expand what we talked about with, allowing brands to enter a closed off market and giving properties away to subsidize income and opening up and monetize underutilized areas of their stadiums and generate revenue for their properties and their teams to, to maximize their, their income and, and just open up a new audience of, of, advertisers as well as enhance their, their fan experience with our technology.

00;45;27;16 - 00;45;39;25
Mark Conrad
Now, those of us here or I shouldn't say me, but say young people, students who want to break into this area, what advice would you give them from the technical side or the marketing side?

00;45;39;27 - 00;46;07;29
James Giglio
Well, I think, you know, my my recommendation is, is is going the agency route, frankly. I think working with, sports marketing agencies or experiential marketing agencies, you'll have an opportunity to get a more wide range of domain expertise, if you will. So you'll have the opportunity to get your hands involved in, in live event technology, the marketing.

00;46;07;29 - 00;46;34;22
James Giglio
So look to companies like CAA, 160over90, Wasserman. I think working on the property side will be valuable. When I mean property, the team side. But you know, you'll be not siloed to your roles and responsibilities, but it will be a very refined to you know, that that in, you know, individual organization where you work on an with an agency, you know, you'll have many different brands to work with.

00;46;34;22 - 00;46;58;05
James Giglio
You'll be working within many different events, many different environments. And then you get to work with, a host of different vendors that have a different skill set in their technology. And so, you know, a more and more of these agencies are trying to spin up some technical stack as well. And so I think that would be my recommendation is, you know, take a look at the agency world to kind of really learn,

00;46;58;05 - 00;47;03;03
James Giglio
and, you know, before you really dive into the team or property side.

00;47;03;05 - 00;47;32;07
Mark Conrad
Well, on that note, unfortunately our time has come and we have to come to a close. On behalf of Fordham University, the Gabelli School of Business, and the Sports Business Initiative, thanks to James Giglio for an engaging and informative discussion. You helped to educate this older non-tech guy and I thank you so much for an illuminating time and illuminating interview.

00;47;32;10 - 00;47;49;06
Mark Conrad
And thanks to my producer, Victoria Ilano, for her great work. And thanks to all of you for listening in. For the Sports Business Podcast at Fordham’s Gabelli School of Business. I’m Mark Conrad or Prof. C, have a great day.

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;38;02
Mark Conrad
Hello and welcome to the Sports Business Podcast with Prof. C, the podcast that explores the world of professional, collegiate, amateur, and Olympic sports. I’m Mark Conrad or Prof. C from Fordham University's Gabelli School of Business, where I serve as Professor of Law and Ethics and the Director of the Sports Business Initiative. The NCAA is the legal gift that keeps on giving.

00;00;38;04 - 00;01;25;27
Mark Conrad
If betting on the outcome in any of the myriad legal challenges against its authority was allowed, it is almost a sure thing to wager against this beleaguered organization. One court grants, class action certification to student athletes challenging its compensation restrictions. Another court grants a preliminary injunction preventing enforcement of its name, image and likeness rules. A Supreme Court justice calls its business model illegal in just about any other business in America. It is likely that student athletes will be considered employees in the next year or so, and after that, look for team athletes to unionize to negotiate compensation and benefits.

00;01;25;29 - 00;02;03;06
Mark Conrad
How could things go so badly so fast for this venerable organization? How did it stay stuck in the ground until it was too late? These are questions we can all ask, but at the core, is its flawed conception of its mission or its credo, not a business, but a bastion of amateurism. The notion is nonsensical in today's age of multibillion dollar TV contracts, merchandising, brand identity, and conference realignment. The big time schools use athletic success as a recruitment tool.

00;02;03;08 - 00;02;39;26
Mark Conrad
Many other institutions tout the achievement of their athletes as a way to entice alumni to shell out money to subsidize these programs and to help students get NIL deals. Finally, top tier college coaches are highly paid for their services, even in schools that are not vying for national titles. So who are we kidding? But the NCAA waives its tattered flag of amateurism to judges, labor regulators, and the halls of Congress to little avail and increasing mockery.

00;02;39;28 - 00;03;16;14
Mark Conrad
At the same time, it takes tentative steps to a semblance of reality. When it recently proposed a compensation system for athletes in certain top programs. The latest nail in the coffin of amateurism was the recent vote by members of Dartmouth College's men's basketball team to unionize. That vote - 13 to 2 - comes shortly after the regional director of the National Labor Relations Board concluded that these students fit the definition of employees under the labor laws.

00;03;16;16 - 00;03;56;14
Mark Conrad
While this determination will be appealed to the entire National Labor Relations Board - and possibly endure court challenges after that - the vote by a group of Ivy League students who don't receive scholarships and play on a team that is not one of the powerhouses of college sports is significant. The seismic changes put college sports at a crossroad. Schools can go one of two ways - embrace a professional system of compensation and unionization, or continue a path of litigation and more litigation and attempts to lobby Congress to save the NCAA’s

00;03;56;17 - 00;04;31;15
Mark Conrad
butt by creating an exemption from antitrust laws. But there's another approach. For some college athletic programs. It may make more sense to abandon this NCAA system for a system of home grown club sports. No big money, no pressure, no alumni base NIL collectives, just the experience of playing on an athletic team for the joy of doing so. An alternative that meets the more virtuous goals of amateur college sports.

00;04;31;17 - 00;04;57;03
Mark Conrad
Any thoughts? Send them to me at [email protected]. Thank you for listening. Until next time, this is Prof. C for the Gabelli School of Sports Business Initiative.

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;47;03
Mark Conrad
Hello and welcome to the Sports Business Podcast with Prof. C, the podcast that explores the world of professional, collegiate, amateur, and Olympic sports. I’m Mark Conrad or Prof. C from Fordham University's Gabelli School of Business, where I serve as Professor of Law and Ethics and the Director of the Sports Business Initiative. After a two-year saga, the Court of Arbitration for Sport rendered its verdict in the case of Russian Olympic figure skater Kamila Valieva. International sport’s

00;00;47;03 - 00;01;24;00
Mark Conrad
leading adjudicative body concluded that she violated anti-doping rules and banned her from competition for four years. For Russia, it is the latest chapter in its decade long series of doping violations in its Olympic sports program. The result is that U.S. and Japan, originally the second and third placed teams, will now receive gold and silver medals. But the bronze medal winner is still uncertain, meaning that the conclusion of this sordid saga remains months away.

00;01;24;03 - 00;01;57;02
Mark Conrad
For Valieva, this is a scarlet letter on her short but storied career. Despite all the propaganda heard from the Russian sports establishment. Coming into the 2022 Olympic Winter Games, Valieva was the lodestar among a highly talented and dominant Russian women's figure skating group. During the team event in Beijing, Valieva, at age 15, became the first woman in history to complete a quadruple jump.

00;01;57;04 - 00;02;24;08
Mark Conrad
She helped lead her team to a gold medal with a point total considerably higher than the U.S. team, which placed second. But right after that team skating event, and just as the individual skating competition was to begin, it was revealed that Valieva tested positive for the prohibited substance trimetazidine, a drug normally used to treat heart related conditions.

00;02;24;11 - 00;02;54;29
Mark Conrad
She claimed she ingested it after her grandfather prepared a strawberry dessert on the same chopping board that he used to crush his medication. In other words, it was accidentally taken by her. The substance was discovered in a lab test administered five weeks before the Olympics after the Russian National Championships. But for some reason, the lab, located in Sweden, failed to report the finding until the Beijing Games were underway.

00;02;55;02 - 00;03;21;28
Mark Conrad
Valieva did not contest the fact that the substance was present, but argued that she did not intend to take it. It was no surprise that the Russian Anti-Doping Agency, with a history of utilizing methods to evade doping rules, cleared her to continue competing. That decision was appealed by the International Skating Union and the World Anti-Doping Agency, known as WADA.

00;03;22;00 - 00;03;52;12
Mark Conrad
An arbitration hearing occurred in Beijing on the question of whether she could compete before a final determination could be made. The panel concluded she could, in large part because she was only 15 and deemed a quote, “protected person” unquote, due to her young age and the potential adverse effect of her not competing for a medal before a final adjudication of her appeal was made by the panel.

00;03;52;14 - 00;04;18;23
Mark Conrad
Indeed, she did compete, and what the world witnessed was a disastrous final skate with the presumptive gold medal favorite falling and stumbling. The result was a fourth place finish and a shocking putdown by her coach for everyone to see. When she left the rink in tears, her coach, Eteri Tutberidze, reprimanded her. “Why did you let it go?”

00;04;18;26 - 00;04;45;19
Mark Conrad
the coach was quoted as saying in an English translation. “Why did you stop fighting? Explain it to me, why?” One of those who was shocked was International Olympic Committee President Thomas Bach. “It was chilling to see this,” he said. Months later, the hearing on the merits of her claim was held and almost two years after the incident, the Court of Arbitration for Sport rendered its decision.

00;04;45;21 - 00;05;18;16
Mark Conrad
The panel rejected Valieva’s argument that she was not at fault. “Too many shortcomings in the evidence and too many unanswered questions,” said the ruling. The panel also rejected an argument by the Russian doping agency that her penalty should be less than the required four year ban for doping violations because of her age. Therefore, she is prohibited from competition for four years, retroactive to the date of the test, which was December 25th, 2021.

00;05;18;18 - 00;05;58;11
Mark Conrad
So theoretically, she could compete in the next Winter Olympics in Milan-Cortina, Italy in 2026. Logically, one would think that the countries originally placed second, third and fourth would be bumped up and would receive medals for the team competition, with the U.S. winning the gold. A happy moment for the U.S. team, which includes men's singles skaters Nathan Chen and Karen Chen and Vincent Zhou; the pair team of Alexa Knierim and Brandon Frazier, and the ice dancing team's Madison Chock and Evan Bates, along with Madison Hubbell and Zachary Donohue.

00;05;58;14 - 00;06;30;13
Mark Conrad
But not so fast. Canada, which originally placed fourth, seeks to receive a bronze medal, claiming the violation disqualified the entire Russian team. The International Skating Union, instead of eliminating Russia entirely, simply deleted the points Valieva earned in that team event, which meant that Russia barely edged Canada for that bronze. This decision by the Skating's International Federation may have violated its own rules regarding doping penalties.

00;06;30;15 - 00;06;57;27
Mark Conrad
One specific provision states, “An anti-doping rules violation committed by a member of a team, occurring during or in connection with an Event may lead to disqualification of all the results obtained by the team in that Event with all Consequences for the team and its members, including forfeiture of all medals, points and prizes.” But note the word “may” rather than “must”.

00;06;58;00 - 00;07;26;08
Mark Conrad
So Canada is appealing the Skating Federation's determination in that same arbitral body, and who knows how long it's going to take. The result of this mess means that the teams from the U.S., Japan and possibly Canada were robbed of their Olympic moment. Who knows when they will get their medals? The U.S. athletes, in particular, missed out on significant endorsement opportunities that come from the notoriety of winning the gold medal.

00;07;26;10 - 00;07;51;04
Mark Conrad
There was talk of awarding the medals at the Paris Olympics, but due to the Skating Union’s decision to give Russia the team bronze and Canada's subsequent appeal, all this is up in the air. At the very least, the U.S. and Japan teams are guaranteed of the gold and silver medals. So even if Canada's appeal is not determined by July, the U.S. athletes should not wait any longer.

00;07;51;11 - 00;08;17;24
Mark Conrad
Give them the medals in Paris. Finally, a word about the Russian Olympic Committee's reaction to Valieva’s suspension. Among other rants, it said, “War has been declared on Russian sports.” An ironic statement coming from a committee representing a government that started a real war in Ukraine. After this sad saga, can these coaches and officials be proud of what happened?

00;08;17;26 - 00;08;57;19
Mark Conrad
Why weren't they punished but only Valieva? And like in the battle days of Soviet sports, are these young athletes indispensable as cogs in a state sponsored system that extolls the glories of Vladimir Putin's government? Any thoughts send them to me at [email protected]. Thank you for listening. Until next time, this is Prof. C for the Gabelli Sports Business Initiatives.